Money Focused Podcast
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Money Focused Podcast
EP 66 - Investing Smart in the Cleveland Housing Market
If you're interested in the Cleveland housing market, this episode is for you! I chat with Josh Janus, a realtor and investor from Cleveland, Ohio, who shares his journey from college house hacking to building a successful portfolio of rental properties. Josh explains how house hacking can help young investors get started and how seller-paid credits can make it easier to afford your first investment. He also talks about the hidden opportunities in the Cleveland housing market, including affordable housing and the benefits of investing in opportunity zones. Plus, Josh gives tips on dealing with challenges like Cleveland’s lead-based paint regulations and offers strategies for scaling your real estate portfolio. Whether you’re just starting out or looking to grow your investments, this episode is packed with advice to help you succeed in real estate.
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Welcome back to the Money Focus Podcast. I'm your host, moses Dementor, and in this episode I'm thrilled to welcome Josh Janis to the show. He's a realtor and a real estate investor from Cleveland Ohio. Josh has a wealth of experience in BRRRR fixing flips, as well as buy and hold investments. He's on track to sell over 200 homes a year and aims to create significant passive income to fund affordable housing projects. So let's dive in.
Speaker 2:I started in the real estate space because I wanted a house hack in college. So I had some money saved up and I wanted to buy a duplex, live in one unit college. So I had some money saved up and I wanted to buy a duplex, live in one unit, rent out the other. And so I found a realtor in my market that helped investors do that and I came into the office. It was like the movie boiler room. It was all these guys banging the phones, making things happen.
Speaker 2:They owned multiple homes in their 20s or early 20s and my mind was blown after just being conventional college student path, and decided to dive into it full time. So that was right around three years ago that I started a cold call to find deals and then I began to work on studying to get my real estate license. After I closed a few deals, then I became a full-time agent helping investors purchase properties in Columbus, ohio, to begin with, then a little bit of Cleveland and now mostly Cleveland. And then I started to take those proceeds from the sales and began to invest in small multifamily, for the most part in Cleveland and Columbus.
Speaker 1:And you mentioned, know you mentioned the house hack.
Speaker 1:You know, on my show I haven't really covered house hacking so much, but you know anybody that's in the real estate investing game they'll tell you that house hacking, especially for a young person like yourself, is so financially beneficial.
Speaker 1:I mean you literally living in a property, probably, you know, for free or close to free, because your tenant is actually paying your mortgage, and then your point of entry is a whole lot lower because you're buying it, because it's your personal residence, so that three and a half percent down would apply versus someone like myself who's an investor. I'm putting down 20, 25 percent for a multifamily. So I always tell people you really, especially when you're young, you know I don't know if you have kids or not, but you know young people who don't have a family yet you can get you a duplex and just bear, you know, living with, you know, a tenant, let's do it for. You know, a few years, stack your money up, move out and then buy you another place and now you have two, three, four rental units and you only had to put a few thousand down, especially in Cleveland, because the price point is so low.
Speaker 2:And most people don't utilize seller paid credits. I think that's huge. So you can actually have the seller cover the majority of your down payment. Wow, huge. So you can actually have the seller cover the majority of your down payment. Wow, and I've actually had clients get paid to purchase a property by utilizing seller paid credits with a low down payment loan.
Speaker 1:No, that's huge. That's huge. So is that something really specific kind of to that to Cleveland or Columbus, or is that something anybody anywhere nationwide should really consider?
Speaker 2:I'd say anyone should consider it. You might be in a really expensive market, one of the major ones in the country where you really can't get duplexes for a million dollars or less. But excluding that subset, everyone else should at least consider it. One of the first few guys that I cold called it was a guy in his 60s and his brother and him. They both bought a house hack each year in their 20s, from like 22 to 29. And they stacked up like dozens of units in a really nice area and made millions of dollars just house hacking. That's it. They didn't buy any other investment properties and that was like the most extreme example I've ever seen of what you can do if you really want to put your mind to it. Yeah, I mean you can do it.
Speaker 1:It's definitely achievable. So I appreciate that I probably need a whole episode on house hacking and its benefits. So if I can go back in time, I would have, definitely, hands down, done it before you know I have my family, so that made sense. So you can do it with a family. It's just a whole lot easier. You can give a guy an air mattress and some pizza. He'll he'll be all right. So just harder with a, just harder with family and stuff. So let's talk about the market the market that you're in, which is a market. I'm very passionate about Anybody who's listening to the show or follow me on YouTube or whatever. They know. Cleveland is where I invest and you actually born in Cleveland and you're currently still investing in Cleveland, so I know you have an affinity for that area. So talk to us about why Cleveland is such a good market for real estate investing.
Speaker 2:I think it's very overlooked. There are a lot of areas that do have a population decrease, if not a kind of stable population not really going anywhere, and that turns away a lot of hedge funds, big investor groups, 1031 buyers, et cetera. But what that doesn't have anything to do with is potential value-add opportunities laying around everywhere. And there is because the city of Cleveland, specifically, not the suburbs and the suburbs are actually huge. There's like a million plus people that live in the suburbs around the city, but it was built for almost double the population than what it has today because of all of the things we used to manufacture here and the size of the industries that were there in the early 1900s.
Speaker 2:So the road infrastructure is really good. There's plenty of parking everywhere, there's plenty of houses everywhere and a lot of those people moved and there's certain areas where people are moving back in. They're renting in certain pockets that are going up and I really like taking advantage of those areas and either doing like a buy and hold or a burRRR or you know there's a couple of different ways you can get involved, but it's got a really consistent rental population. It's been the same way basically for 50 years. It hasn't really changed much. The rents are very affordable. I haven't had a single eviction. I've had to give cash or keys a couple of times on stuff that I've bought, but in general it's pretty consistent rent as well.
Speaker 1:I notice the traffic a whole lot when I go up there because I'm in Atlanta and I grew up in New York, so everywhere I've ever lived the traffic is just horrible. So it's really cool when you go up to Cleveland because, like you said, the infrastructure is designed for double the amount of people, so getting around it's just so much easier. It's a breeze, like if there's a concert or something that we want to go to, we'll actually look for shows that are in Cleveland. It will actually make the flight up there, you know, to serve two purposes we can check on our rentals and stuff like that, but we'll actually have a better experience going to the concerts and going to an event in Cleveland because traffic is so easy. You mentioned parking. So I love Cleveland. I see it as a place where people can probably have to move back just due to affordability, so I'll take it in a heartbeat.
Speaker 1:Then you mentioned about like housing in general. Right, and what a lot of people don't know is that the housing authority in Cleveland is the largest housing authority in the country. So it's a huge need for people to have quality housing in Cleveland and you know that's where someone like myself or someone like you. That's local, you know it's an opportunity to really, you know, put quality housing up there, because you know people need it, they need it fast, they need it fast up there. Anytime I have a listing, I'm getting dozens a day of applications or just interests hey, can I get in there? Can I look at it? Can I do this, can I do that? And I don't know many places that where you have that much demand at every single time that I do it. So that's key.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you can truly improve the average living conditions of the people that are living in the city, specifically just by renovating. It's crazy how much of an impact you can make.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. What about? I know I ran across some of your content before and you spoke about opportunity zones and you know I've seen, you know that come up a lot in different, you know investment opportunities where they say, hey, this qualifies for opportunity zone credit. But I wanted to hear directly from you, since you know you have some experience with it. But can you enlighten us on what exactly that is and how it can benefit the investor and also the community?
Speaker 2:Of course, two really quick disclaimers. I'm not an expert in this, I've done it a handful of times but I'll tell you what I know. Number two I'm not a tax attorney, so this is not tax advice. So there's a map that the federal government made that outlines all of these areas and all the cities and states around the country, and if you buy a property in one of those areas you can qualify for a state tax credit and a federal tax credit. So the state one is easier to explain. So in Cleveland a lot of the opportunity zone areas are the West side Ohio City, detroit, shoreway, tremont, et cetera, and then a little bit on the East side St Clair, fairfax, more of the really distressed areas on the East side as well. Well, let's say you buy a property for $100,000 and you're planning on putting $50,000 into it, which is a pretty normal deal for a Cleveland property. So your all-in cost is $150,000. If you have an attorney set up your Opportunity Zone fund correctly which it's like $10,000 to $20,000 to do your first time, but it's way better after that you can get 10% back in your purchase price and renovation costs as corporate tax credits. So in that example you get $15,000 back. Then you can have your attorney sell those credits for cash, because individuals or small businesses don't pay a large proportion of that specific tax credit. So it would take you years to use it. So you might as well just sell it to a big corporation at around 80 cents on the dollar after fees and commissions and everything. So basically every deal is 8% off. You can get those checks every six months.
Speaker 2:So you can do that on a single family. You can do that on a hundred unit building. You can do it on a warehouse. It really doesn't matter what piece of real estate it is, it just has to be in that area and you have to set up the accounts correctly. So that's the state, the federal. There's a lot of things going on with the federal credit, but you can qualify for that if you're putting more money into the property than what you're paying for it, more money into the property than what you're paying for it. And if you end up doing that which I actually did on two and I'm waiting on the outcomes on that there's some sort of capital gain reimbursement If you hold the property for a certain number of years. Maybe it's two years or five years, I can't remember off the top of my head, but there's that advantage too. So it's really good for for flipping single families you can renovate really nice ones. Or if we just burn multifamilies, you know, keeping, keeping the properties Not as great.
Speaker 1:I mean, what would you say is you know, you pointed out those positives, but you did say that this you know opportunity zone is typically going to be in distress areas. So are you finding that, hey, if you invest in those areas you know, you're pretty much going to have to wait until, like more, further investments catch up? Is that a risk for someone who might be interested, or do you not even see that as an opportunity?
Speaker 2:It really varies on the market that you're in. So in Columbus pretty much all the opportunity zones are C-class. Cleveland it's actually a mixture of A, b, c, d and F, all of it. So it really just depends on your market and where you're at, because sometimes they throw that zone up and a bunch of developers pour a bunch of money into it and it genuinely makes the neighborhood better than what it was before at a large scale. So it just depends on where you're at what you're doing. Try not to be the nicest house on the street. That's always a tough strategy. Try to be right around the 80th percentile is what I try to shoot for. That way your ARV is relatively predictable.
Speaker 1:What about some? You know other, like regulatory or legal, um, kind of pitfalls or things that people might need to be aware of when they're investing in Cleveland? Is there anything that you can call out?
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot going on right now with the lead-based paint certification program that the city unveiled. I'm not an expert on this at all, but I've talked to a couple of attorneys and property managers. In the beginning of COVID they threw out that if you didn't have the certification. In the beginning of COVID they threw out that if you didn't have the certification, which costs $750 per unit every two years, you weren't able to evict someone. And no one had the certification. And these homes are filled with tenants with lead in them, because everything was built before 1950, basically in the city of Cleveland. So it was utter chaos and they ended up not being able to prevent evictions, from what I understand, because it would destroy the city, basically. So that's something to be aware of. I slowly scrape and paint my properties over time to kind of get rid of it. That's a good thing to do anyways. The interior, the window frames, the exterior, just having it be safe and rentable, that's the most important thing.
Speaker 1:So because again, this is impacting me. So any paint? So if you freshly paint it but you would have to scrape it first and then paint over that to be compliant, is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2:Depends on the materials that you're using, depends on what the old paint was on too. There's a bunch of different ways, but in general, contractors try to go the expensive route, which is like replace everything, tear everything out, replace everything, which you may have to do, but more than likely you can just scrape and paint. You may have to do, but more than likely you can just scrape and paint, and that gets. That gets you where you need to go at 20% of the cost or way cheaper.
Speaker 1:Way cheaper Gotcha, and is that something that's pretty much starting to circle back around now? You know, as, as far as compliance, as you said, it was like during COVID, where they had wanted to enforce it but they couldn't, but is that starting to bubble up now?
Speaker 2:So it wouldn't prevent you from getting an owner or a rental occupancy permit which gives you the legal ability to rent a unit in the city. You didn't have to have the certification to do that and you still don't, as of like last week when I just got a new one, so it's not really affecting that. There's also 500,000 parcels or something insane in Cuyahoga County, so it's going to take them forever to go and verify who has what and what the situation is. It's kind of in this weird spot right now, but what I can tell you, what I'm doing as an investor, is slowly scraping and painting things so that if there is an issue down the road where they're truly enforcing it every corner, everywhere, I'm better prepared.
Speaker 1:I'm definitely for being proactive with it, especially without me being local there. I don't want anything to just pop up, you know. I'd rather, you know, get ahead of it. So great, call out.
Speaker 2:Again, it's just the city of Cleveland, gotcha, and then I believe it's Cleveland Heights as well. But if you own in Shaker Heights, garfield Heights, that's different. They don't need any of that. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So what Josh is talking about you know primarily. You know, like, when we're saying Cleveland, we're talking about you know the city, the city. So, like I'm in Atlanta, you know I say Atlanta all the time but I really live in the suburbs of Atlanta. So a lot of the places Cleveland Heights that you mentioned, shaker Heights those are suburbs of Cleveland, so it wouldn't necessarily apply You're talking about just Cleveland only has that kind of a mandate. Yeah, so I guess I am safe, but I do want to. You know I'll invest in Cleveland with the. You know the right opportunity. So it's just still something you know I need to keep front of mind and also for the viewers and listeners, if you're investing in the city of Cleveland, listen to Josh. You know this is something that might, you know, you have to consider before you make that job, for sure.
Speaker 2:And when you hear things like this go around, most people are going to be like I'm going to go somewhere else and I think, great, go somewhere else because now I can get more deals. If you can be effective in more challenging areas, you're just going to dominate because there's not as many people that have the systems in place to do it correctly. That's at least the way that I think about it. Yeah, I'm annoyed that they're doing that stuff, but I know that when I find an off-market deal, there's a higher chance now that there's no one else going after it, versus where I got to compete with people.
Speaker 1:Because you have the system to go ahead and take care of it. So it's not a big deal. So I get you. So let's talk a little bit more about the economic factors of why someone should consider investing in Cleveland or Cuyahoga County. I know one of the ones that just jumps out for me is you know, you know Cleveland is recognized as this large, you know medical kind of epicenter. You know a lot of, you know top medical professionals and medical facilities are based in Cleveland. Are there any other you know economic factors that people should consider for Cleveland?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you have the Cleveland Clinic main campus. That's arguably the best cardiovascular hospital system in the entire world. It's been ranked there for years. Then you have the Metro campus on the other side of the city. That is probably top 20 in the nation two multi-billion dollar corporations that employ tens of thousands or over 100,000 people I'm not sure exactly how much so you have that. Then you also have all major sports teams.
Speaker 2:Very, very affordable cost of living and standard of living compared to other cities of its size. You got a lake. You have a lot of really good school systems, whether it's private or public. A lot of the top ranked school systems in the state are in Cleveland. I'm an East Sider on Cleveland so I always think that's the better side. But yeah, and there's still a reasonable amount of manufacturing and similar type jobs like that that really haven't gone anywhere. Amazon has a lot of big hubs. It's just consistent. I don't see it as like a market that's going to blow up like Columbus maybe, where you have like so much new technology money going into it, but you have a really consistent market where it's hard for it to bottom out when you can buy a house for a hundred thousand.
Speaker 1:It's kind of already at the bottom yeah, and and, like you said, the, the sports team. So there's still, you know, considerable amount of entertainment that you can take part of. You know, in cleveland, you know, whether it's athletics, anytime, any major, you know show or event is happening, it's a good chance it's going to touch Cleveland, you know so, and you don't have to deal with the crazy population of people on the road and everywhere. It takes you extra hour and a half to get there because of traffic. You know. You mentioned so some great universities, colleges that are, you know, pretty much right there.
Speaker 1:You know that people can, you know, be a part of and even though you might not think it's going to blow up, you know, overnight, I also feel good investing in Cleveland because it does have the ability to scale up if necessary. You know, if there was a push, if there was some, if manufacturing did come back a little bit more, you know the city can, you know, absorb it because that's where it was at one point. So you know it might not be in my lifetime, who knows? But you know, I think the city is, is is ripe for growth. It just might not be 10x growth, but I do see the city, you know, taking some great strides forward in the future, because affordability is just crazy right now. If you want to buy a house in Atlanta, it's a lot. You have to make some good money. So you know, for those people who really want the American dream, you're going to have to move to different cities, and why not? A place like Cleveland, minus the three, four months of extreme cold. You know it's pretty great.
Speaker 2:Something else that most people don't know is in the early 1900s the most millionaires in the entire world lived in Cleveland, ohio, in Millionaire's Row, and there's still quite a bit of evidence of old money here. You know there's five plus billionaire families that live here on the East side again, but you know that presence is still there and hasn't really gone away for a hundred years. So that's a good sign. Yeah, it's a historic city.
Speaker 1:It's really beautiful. Some areas and I'll put this out there because I'm very transparent, on the show Cleveland it's like night and day in some areas. I'll put this out there because I'm very transparent on the show Cleveland it's like night and day in some areas. You know like some areas look like a third world country. You know, if you drive through and it tugs at your heart a little bit because you can't believe that some people are living like this. But it literally could be like Leroy, for example.
Speaker 2:You know, like to the, you know right, so you can literally the west side of Leroy and the east side of Leroy up by, like Cedar is two different worlds.
Speaker 1:Two different worlds, and my wife kept telling me that she was like listen, I'm going to tell you you can't just look at, you know these listings. But I'm like, hey, it says, you know, it says Shaker Heights, for example, like you know, but not everywhere in Shaker, is always going to be where you want to invest. So just little stuff like that. So I would suggest people, hey, go to Cleveland, drive around. Great restaurants, traffic is excellent, nice people, but really take your time to drive around and see what a house that costs $50,000 looks like versus a house that costs $100,000 versus $150,000. It's really different, for sure. Oh yeah, let's talk about yield, because this is the money-focused podcast. Oh yeah, let's talk about yield because this is the money focused podcast. So we're talking about money, right, and specifically on the birth strategy, which is by rehab, rent, refinancing and repeat, right. So is the Cleveland market a good market to do that? If so, tell us why and what type of returns are you typically seeing in your investments?
Speaker 2:I think it's a great market to do it and I've basically only done the BRRRR method. My first deal I bought was June of 2022. And I have like 160 units now in the right around two years and it's basically all been small multifamily, single family burrs in like C-class working class neighborhoods. So you can typically expect to leave like $5,000 to maybe $15,000 in a deal or pull money out if you're refinancing like a 70%, 75% LTV on like a duplex or a single family. You want to refi at 80 with where rates are right now because then you're going to be in the negative every month. So you got to pick and choose.
Speaker 2:The backend cashflow isn't great right now on the BRRRS, but the equity gain far outweighs the $100 a month difference because it's going to take you yearsS. But the equity gain far outweighs the $100 a month difference Because it's going to take you years to build up the equity gain that you made immediately versus $100 a month difference. Eventually rates will drop at some point and you refine. You get what you're looking for. It's right there. So that's the kind of way that I approach it. You just got to have a really good contracting crew in place because I got burnt like you can't believe really bad by multiple people in the beginning figuring out how to scale a big team at this point hey, start off, which is your old lady's house, where I just need some cosmetic refresh.
Speaker 1:But what type of renovation jobs are you doing? Are you going down to the?
Speaker 2:studs. Where are you at? I am now, but I didn't start there. Something to think about that I see a lot of investors looking at is oh, I'll start with the light rehab, which is good, but the issue is your equity gain is going to be roughly proportional, meaning if you put 15K into the house, you're probably only going to net 15K equity in the house. That's not bad, I mean, that's a win, yeah.
Speaker 2:But I would say you should try to get to that 30, 40, 50k mark. That way you actually get money's worth of the stress and headache you went through to get that house to where it needs to be, and these are 100-year-old homes. It ain't that hard to throw 30 to 50K into them, and most of them need 15K per unit at least anyways. So you're going to hit that for the most part. Yeah, now I do down to the studs. Like I bought a house that had a fire that burnt up the third floor, so I reframed it and built a new roof, yeah, and you know you mentioned that you know you got burned at first.
Speaker 1:So how did you find that contractor? What best practices would you suggest for someone who's looking for a contractor? Let's just start there. What should you suggest for someone who's looking for a contractor? Let's just start there. What should you look for?
Speaker 2:So it was a referral from somebody I trusted and I didn't do any due diligence and I learned my lesson. Six figures plus six months later and an absolute headache, and then it happened again. So I would really make sure to check the past people they've worked with and figure out why did that person stop working with them? Because if they're really good and they're everything that they say they are, what happened? Maybe that person the previous investor really found a better opportunity? Great, if that's actually what happens, jump all over that.
Speaker 2:Or maybe you can bring more business to the contractor than the previous business that they were bringing in. That's the situation that I ran into with my main crew or my project manager. Now I ended up bringing him more business than who he was working with before. So it's just an economic decision. Yet he decided to go with me now. But yeah, that's a few things to keep in mind. Always have like scopes of work figured out. You don't have to do it before you get an offer in, but you know. Know what they're doing, know that in the bid they're you know they're actually paying the exterior or they're actually putting new countertops in. They're going to put this quality of vanities and fixtures into the house. This way you're not surprised at the end and disappointed.
Speaker 1:As far as financing like, do you use hard money loans or do you do?
Speaker 2:commercial Like what's your route for financing? My main go-to is hard money and then four months later hopefully refinance into a DSCR product.
Speaker 1:For people that don't know you know hard money. What are some of like the high level requirements so you have to come in with you know certain down payment? What are some things they might look at?
Speaker 2:It's probably the easiest loan to get. I kind of joke and eat a heartbeat and like 20 grand. We need a little bit more than that. But you know 600, 650 credit score, I think. Okay, the lender that I was using originally required 20,000 per $100,000 of purchase price. Generally you put down 10 to 15%. They will give you the money to renovate the house. Normally you have to supply the cash in the front end to your contractor. Once they do the work they'll review it and they'll give you your money back and you just kind of cycle it through until you're done and the interest rates are high because it's short-term debt and it's debt that can close quickly and is way less restricted than a conventional loan. So I'm paying 12%, 13% on the cash, but it's only like three, six months maybe, and your equity gain is way higher. It's in the hundreds percent of what you're getting. So you're not really paying that much.
Speaker 1:So which kind of leads to? You know you make your money on the purchase, so how do you? Do you actually source your own deals, or do you work with a wholesaler?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so everything sprung from me cold calling to find deals. Then after that I started to reach out to agents and then some wholesalers and then I built a team of people that cold call. So it's kind of a bunch of different avenues. Wow, I directly don't source deals, but the people like one layer next to me pretty much sources all the deals.
Speaker 1:Nice, okay, cool sources all of the deals, thanks, okay, cool. What final thoughts or advice would you give to someone who's interested in real estate investing in general, not even just out there in Cleveland. What advice would you give them? And then also close us with how we can reach you and you directly, or your business or any call to action that you want the audience to have. So the floor is yours.
Speaker 2:Of course. So I would say when you're starting, keep it simple. Don't try to do something really sophisticated, because in general, there's what you know, there's what you don't know, that you don't know, and then there's what you don't know that you don't even know. That is there. So there's like three categories of things, and every time you get more sophisticated in any action or anything creative, there's all these new difficulties that are going to come across your table that you probably weren't expecting and you're not ready for. So to translate that abstract knowledge or abstract language into the investors I work with is like just start with buying holds, single family duplex, build your team. Then, if you really want to start doing flips or burrs, you're going to have to have good contractors, because there's so many things that can go wrong. You make your money on the purchase and you lose your money rehabbing it. And you can really lose your money rehabbing it if you don't do it correctly and you don't have all the systems in place and have reliable people on your team. So keep it simple.
Speaker 2:Real estate is a long-term investing game. This isn't a two-year thing where you get in and you get out. This is a 10, 20, 30, 40-year game and you make. Most of the benefits and most of the reasons why you invest don't really come across until year five or 10. When you have a big portfolio that's appreciating every year, you're paying down a good amount of principal every year, get the tax advantages and, of course, you get the cash flow. So, yeah, keep it simple and focus on the long term and understand that it's a long term game.
Speaker 1:Nice, nice, and how can we reach you?
Speaker 2:Of course. So yeah, I'm Josh Janis on Instagram. You can DM me. I answer and same thing on BiggerPockets, Josh Janis, perfect perfect.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you so much for joining the show, and I definitely will tap into you, because I go to Cleveland several times a year and I'm going to be there for a long time investing, so it's great meeting you. We're out.
Speaker 2:Let's do it. Thanks, moses.
